[Cailean]

I'm just looking for some clarification here... I'm in the market for a used ultralight. I want an advanced ultralight -- but it seems that most for sale (including on this site) are registered as basics...

My understanding is that once an ultralight is registered as basic, it can never be registered as an AULA, is this the case?

[Trev Page]

Cailean, you're correct about the registration. Once a basic it stays as basic. Not all ultralights can be registered as advanced, only those that the manufacturer has submitted the proper paperwork to Transport.

Advanced ultralights also require a statement of conformity signed by the manufacturer or representative after an inspection. This is NOT an MD-RA inspection however. The builder also signs this statement to the effect that no mods have been made to the aircraft.

Advanced ultralights are basically "paper airplanes" meaning that their safety is not any more other than what is stated on the paperwork. Buyer beware.

Your best bet is to have someone knowledgeable go over the planes you are interested in order to help you make a safe decision.

[Cailean]

Thanks, that's what I thought... I know about TC's list of 'approved' AULA's I just couldn't find clarification about a/c that are currently registered as basic but otherwise qualify as an AULA.

[excaliburmyex]

I'm currently traning and would like to buy a used AULA. There is a KITFOX 4 Classic that is approx. 85% complete. It has a new owner(2nd) and has never been registered. The firts owner, I believe, has something to do with the distribution and repairs in his area therefore says he can issue a Fit For Flight document?? How can he do that if it has never been registered and an original Statement of Conformity has not been signed by the manufacturer? Wouldn't the manufacturer have to sign the Statement even if it's been sold for the third time?
I'd much rather buy a completed model of A/C that will do most of what I'm looking for; they seem to be very reasonable in cost compared to the new kits. Thanks

VP

[klubitz]

In order to get the plane registered, you will need an Statement of Conformity signed by the mfg or his representative. If the first owner is the mfg's representative, then he can sign the SoC. But check with the mfg or with Transport to make sure his signature will be accepted.

A Fit for Flight Form is filled out for a plane that is already registered and is being sold. You will need one of these if you buy a used AULA. It is signed by both the seller and the buyer (you).

It is always "buyer beware" for any used plane or project. Make sure you get all of the maintenance records and other documents for any used AULA. Any modifications that might affect the type design have to be approved by the mfg. and only the mfg will know if a mod affects the type design.... look for mfg approval for such things as an engine change especially if it different than the one it was orginally regstered with.

Kathy Lubitz

[shortkut]

I am looking at a 1987 challenger 2. It is registered as a basic ultralight, is there any disadvantages to this? I thought all the challenger 2's were advanced ultralights?

[Dyceman]

Shortkut,

No aircraft is "automatically" and advanced ultralight. The decision of whether to register a UL kit as advance or basic is made at the time of the kit assembly by the original (or first) owner. If advanced - then you need to get a signed statement of conformity form from the manufacturer (or their authorized representative) after the kit is completed. This typically involves some form of inspection process. Once in hand, the SOC means the kit company has confirmed to Transport Canada that the airplane was assembled according to their type certificate with no unapproved modificaitons. It also means that the kit company is officially the "manufacturer" of the airplane, and assumes whatever potential liability issues this may entail. An AULA can voluntarily be downgraded to BASIC if you decide you don't want to continue as AULA, or it can automatically be downgraded if you make modificaitons to the plane.

If the decision is made to just go basic - then you just build the kit anyway you want and fly whenever you think it's ready for the air. You are the official manufacturer of the plane and assume whatever potential liability this may entail (if there was an accident involving personal injury or if the plane was ultimately sold to someone else). Once registered as a basic UL, that is pretty much permanent.

It is technically possible to re-register a basic UL to advance, but you would have to work with the orginal aircraft manufacturer (or their authorized representative) on this. You would need to convince the original manufacturer to give you a signed Statement of Conformity for the airplane. If they do - and IF THE PLANE IS LISTED ON TC's official register of approved AULAs - then it is possible.

Are there disadvantages of basic vs aula? That depends. Many would argue that basic has more advantages because it is much simpler with much less red tape. Plus you can make whatever modifcations or repairs as you see fit. The primary disadvantage of Basics I guess is that Basic UL's cannot carry passengers (except for flight instruction and if you are an instructor). There are also some airspace limitations, but if you have a functioning two-way radio, then not really.

The main advantage of AULA is that you can take passengers, fly pretty much anywhere (if appropriately equipped), and you are not listed anywhere as the planes manufacturer (some liability protection). However, you cannot make ANY modification to the airplane, nor substantial repair without the permission of the manufacturer and the use of their approved replacement parts. So - with an AULA you have a life-long relationship with the original kit company. And you hope they stay in business

So - the Challenger you are looking at was most likely originally assembled as BASIC, and therefore you can expect it to stay that way. I think it would be tough to convince the kit manufacturer to provide a SOC for one of their planes that was build as Basic. You would probably have to remove most of the fabric so the assembly could be examined and inspected, change any modifications that might have been made, plus who knows what else. Probably not worth it.

[louis]

"You would probably have to remove most of the fabric so the assembly could be examined and inspected, change any modifications that might have been made, plus who knows what else. Probably not worth it."

pardon the pun but no dice as far as challengers are concerned. challenger manufacturer only allows brand new ones to be set up as advanced. if used it stays as basic.

i lucked out with my titan as a i managed to get a letter of conformity from titan 10 years after it was built, but the owner of titan still personally inspected the aircraft and requested some minor changes before he gave me a letter. i still have not flown with any passenger in it so it may as well have stayed as basic anyway

louis